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Post by ramsrus on Oct 26, 2009 10:28:23 GMT 10
The reason there are participation rules at tournaments is so that each player gets a "fair" opportunity to play and 50 % is considered fair. Participation sheets have to be handed in to BQI, so they do check this. What is it that you feel is "unfair"? How far would you like the rules to go to be "fair"? There is nothing in the rules that says a player must play every day, so yes, a player could play the first 3 games and then not play for the rest of the weekend (6 game tournament.) Is this fair? It is according to the participation rules but you ask a child if it's fair, I doubt they would agree it is. Players would play every game if they could, so my opinion on this is that an attempt at least should be made to ensure that they play in at least one game per day.
One post I read said that most coaches measure their success by how many players they get into the QLD squad. Here lies the crux of the problem. I thought the titles were a team event and just one of a number of opportunities to see what players can do. If this is the goal of coaches, then no wonder there is so much unhappiness as the players in contention for selection will always get preference in order for coaches to be successful. Perhaps we as parents need some clarity on what the purpose is of the state titles so there are no unrealistic expectations? Is it a try out for the QLD squad? If so, then attendance should be a mandatory requirement unless injured or performing higher duties. Is it an opportunity for coaches to receive recognition? Don't even want to go there!!! Is it an attempt to win a trophy as the best team at the tournament? Is it a platform to provide players with experience and opportunity to step up - develop them? Is it an opportunity for players to build team spirit and good sportmanship?
What is it?
This is a TEAM game! Success should be about the TEAM, not the individuals, whether they be players or coaches. The best teams are those who have individuals working to a common goal, not their own personal goals. Coaches should be supporting all the individuals in the TEAM, not only those who can up his QLD squad quota.
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Post by wildpitch23 on Oct 26, 2009 11:50:46 GMT 10
I totally agree with your post Ramsrus! I personally hate that many see our State Titles as simply a trial. I know many players, never in contention for State selection, who regard playing at this tournament as the highlight of their playing days. These players and their experience are not always looked after.
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Post by ramsrus on Oct 26, 2009 15:23:10 GMT 10
Maybe if we really want to develop players and use State Titles to see if they can step up, we should change the participation rules at State Titles to be that any player currently in an elite program or who represented QLD / Australia within the last 12 months, CANNOT participate more than 50% of the time.
The elite / Rams players are already on somebody's list, so they don't need the same attention and experience as the other players. They are already getting much more baseball for their buck based on all the extra coaching, training and games they play.
We need to remember fundamentally baseball is about the players (all of them), not the coaches, selectors or the scouts.
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Post by wildpitch23 on Oct 26, 2009 15:37:49 GMT 10
Great idea
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Post by 44 on Oct 26, 2009 15:43:01 GMT 10
Maybe if we really want to develop players and use State Titles to see if they can step up, we should change the participation rules at State Titles to be that any player currently in an elite program or who represented QLD / Australia within the last 12 months, CANNOT participate more than 50% of the time. The elite / Rams players are already on somebody's list, so they don't need the same attention and experience as the other players. They are already getting much more baseball for their buck based on all the extra coaching, training and games they play. We need to remember fundamentally baseball is about the players (all of them), not the coaches, selectors or the scouts. Great post ramsrus , the concept would help do more to develop the fringe players and keep them in the game longer and may uncover undiscovered talent cast aside at 12, 13 or 14 years of age. I'm giving you a Double EXALT for that one.....
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Post by homerun on Oct 26, 2009 15:56:25 GMT 10
Bravo Ramsrus. That is exactly the constructive thinking needed.And that is what it is all about. This is exactly what is needed
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Post by pope on Oct 26, 2009 16:40:47 GMT 10
Maybe if we really want to develop players and use State Titles to see if they can step up, we should change the participation rules at State Titles to be that any player currently in an elite program or who represented QLD / Australia within the last 12 months, CANNOT participate more than 50% of the time. The elite / Rams players are already on somebody's list, so they don't need the same attention and experience as the other players. They are already getting much more baseball for their buck based on all the extra coaching, training and games they play. We need to remember fundamentally baseball is about the players (all of them), not the coaches, selectors or the scouts. Great post ramsrus , the concept would help do more to develop the fringe players and keep them in the game longer and may uncover undiscovered talent cast aside at 12, 13 or 14 years of age. I'm giving you a Double EXALT for that one..... Got to agree with that. This idea has to be one of the best ideas I've heard for juniors in a long time. Need to pass that one onto the powers that be....
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Post by wilderness on Oct 26, 2009 17:33:14 GMT 10
This is the best idea I've heard in a long time!!! Next time we have a federal election, I'm voting ramsrus for prime minister ... no make that president!!
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Post by JRA Qld2 on Oct 26, 2009 18:41:08 GMT 10
Ramsrus, couldn't agree more. Sick of people talking about state titles like a trial, the other 70 odd players who don't make squad have regional representation as a highlight.
Definitely something to bring up to the BQ staff
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Post by ramsrus on Oct 26, 2009 19:13:45 GMT 10
now now wilderness, don't get too carried away.
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Post by homerun on Oct 27, 2009 13:27:57 GMT 10
Don't stop there Ramsrus, keep going, you are on a roll. More Ideas please...Your posts are so sensible.... JRA, separating trials from tournament, I think a step in the right direction
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Post by unknown on Oct 27, 2009 14:02:08 GMT 10
Most regional coaches that I know regard their success by the number of their players that are selected in the State squad. Why would they try to keep someone out? I think you are confusing this with the fact that most regional coaches judge their succes by how successful they are at the State Titles (as in what place the team finishes). I feel that it just goes hand in hand that success is usually driven by who has the most quality players. I agree that during the younger age group (possibly up to U14) there should be perhaps only a priority on participation to ensure growth within baseball and keeping players in the game also. However, at some point the focus should shift to putting the best team on the field. Baseball, like all sports, is competitive - and if a kid wants to play (and is good enough to play) in a regional team - he likely cares more about winning than participating. I have been both the good (high participation) and the bad (low participation) player on representative teams - and I assure you, as long as the team is winning, it doesn't matter how much you play. I'd certainly much rather play 50% of the time and win a tournament than play 100% of the time and come 4th. I realise this isn't the viewpoint of parents always, and fair enough as you are putting in the same amount of money as those parents whose kids get more playing time. But just for a moment, think about if you're kids are having a good time? Maybe they just enjoy being out there wearing that uniform with their friends.
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Post by Ryn on Oct 27, 2009 14:59:54 GMT 10
Most regional coaches that I know regard their success by the number of their players that are selected in the State squad. Why would they try to keep someone out? So they are effectively basing their 'success' on the opinions of a few select individuals. Doesn't sound logical to me. 3 years ago the regional team I was coaching at the titles had more state players than any other region, but we came 5th. I don't see that as a success. It's a success for the clubs and their respective coaches for developing the talent that I had access to for 8 weeks, but not me as a coach. However, I can honestly say that if we had won, I still wouldn't base my 'success' as a coach on that. I'd get more satisfaction out of coaching a team through a long season, and at the end be able to look back and honestly say that I've improved the kids' skills as players, athletes, and hopefully young adults. And to tie this in with the overall theme of this thread - I don't believe you can put too much stock into 3 days of baseball. As someone elluded - sample size. No substantial conclusions in any area of life are made based on a few occurances, so why should baseball be any different. You can't measure a player's ability based on a handful of at bats, just like you can't measure a coach's ability based on a handful of games over a 3 day tournament.
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Post by ramsrus on Oct 27, 2009 15:40:17 GMT 10
Ryn said -
Quote "Baseball like all sports, is competitive - and if a kid wants to play (and is good enough to play) in a regional team - he likely cares more about winning than participating. I have been both the good (high participation) and the bad (low participation) player on representative teams - and I assure you, as long as the team is winning, it doesn't matter how much you play. I'd certainly much rather play 50% of the time and win a tournament than play 100% of the time and come 4th.
I realise this isn't the viewpoint of parents always, and fair enough as you are putting in the same amount of money as those parents whose kids get more playing time. But just for a moment, think about if you're kids are having a good time? Maybe they just enjoy being out there wearing that uniform with their friends.[/quote][/i]
Not sure I agree with you totally on this. Only one team can win and yes, the pain of not playing as much as you would like is balanced by winning the medal. They may be happy to just be out there having fun with their friends if it wasn't a trial to make the QLD squad. No one has a good time sitting on the bench for 3 games in a row because other players are "better", especially when they have aspirations of making a squad themselves.
Over the years, I have seen many players considered “better” given multiple opportunities to perform in games while “other” players sit on the bench. I have seen “other” players get left out of big games due to non performance while “better” players who haven’t performed get to play. Now you could say that the “better” player is more likely to perform in big games and you will probably be right. But, all a child sees is the black and white of the situation, not all the statistics, technical analysis and major league like management techniques.
We are dealing with children here, not professional baseball players. Yes, they do need to toughen up to prepare them for potential future pro careers, but at 11 or 12 or 14 or 15? I’d like to see some research that identifies at what age this toughening up process starts to be useful, because I don’t believe all children of this age are emotionally mature enough to handle it.
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Post by ramsrus on Oct 27, 2009 15:59:29 GMT 10
Another thought.... who needs to toughen up, because it's not tough to play most of the time and it's not tough making a squad and knowing you are a "better" player.
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