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Post by wildpitch23 on Oct 25, 2009 1:23:13 GMT 10
I agree with you, Homerun, that if players are given their chances fairly to play in each game over the tournament, that the stats would be relevant but anyone who has has anything to do with participation at a State juniors tourny knows that this doesn't happen. I believe that season long stats are a more true indication of a player's performance....and believe me, stats can be manipulated!!
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Post by ramsrus on Oct 25, 2009 9:33:42 GMT 10
Ok, my opinion again...... Stats are only useful over an extended period of time, much more time than a weekend of baseball or the limited number of games that are played in a season here. Stats as far as I am aware are just one of the reference points used in selection, but not the reference point. Stats do not tell you anything about a player's ability to think the game and make the right decisions on a play i.e. they do not record mental errors which sometimes cost more games than physical errors. They also may be very wrong based on the experience of the scorers especially at the lower levels where people are still learning. Wildpitch23, I personally take offence at your comment that stats can be manipulated as that implies intent to do the wrong thing rather than a lack of judgement. It is certainly not something that is taught or encouraged within the scorers association.
There are a number of implications in a few of the posts that could be taken to question the integrity of all coaches and selectors when there are probably a minority that "manipulate" situations, knowingly or unknowingly. People make mistakes due to lack of information, following emotions rather than logic and their own inexperience when making decisions. This is what human beings do and I'd like to meet the person who hasn't done so in their life. Please don't get me wrong, I have been frustrated and voiced my unhappiness with selections, so I have been there. It's not always fair, but perhaps if you have a gripe, you should try to talk to the people involved directly. Don't give me that excuse that you don't want you kid victimised because I've been there, done that and my kids have never been victimised. SOme of the coaches and selectors have been on the receiving end of the "you didn't make it speech" themselves a number of times. Do you really think they like giving the news?
If you and your child think they have what it takes to make something of themselves in baseball, don't let anyone tell you they haven't. Persevere, try harder and support your child through an experience that is very soul destroying as a child. Th people making decisions now may not be the people making decisions in future so if you think that's an issue, it's not a permanent one.
As a final comment, people who deliberately treat others unfairly, manipulate situations and do the wrong thing, do not earn respect and will be found out.
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Post by ramsrus on Oct 25, 2009 10:11:23 GMT 10
Sorry, (in case you think I am a hypocrite), I forgot to point out that I haven't always responded as positively as my advice suggests to selection or pariticapation disappointments, but I am learning as I go along. I have upset people over the years, but my kids have not been victimised because of it.
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Post by wildpitch23 on Oct 25, 2009 12:44:25 GMT 10
Ramsrus, no offence intended I can assure you, to any scorers. However, I still maintain that stats can be manipulated and are, as I have been in the scorers box when it has happened at a State Titles with a less experienced scorer.....not all regions send a Level 2 Scorer as required.
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Post by ramsrus on Oct 25, 2009 16:08:51 GMT 10
Point taken wildpitch23. That is unfortunate and I hope it's not the norm.
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Post by ramsrus on Oct 25, 2009 16:11:38 GMT 10
Just a friendly reminder everyone that this is a place to share opinions and information. It's not a forum for perceived or real threatening emails and / or abusive comments.
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Post by oldmate on Oct 25, 2009 19:25:25 GMT 10
Homerun, just a question for you, if you were picking a player for your team would you take the kid that gets 10 bloop singles off his hands with a batting avg of 1000 or would you take the player who hits 10 ground balls to 2nd base with none out and a runner on 2nd every time with a batting avg of 0.000? This is why we don't pay that much attention to stats. One player gets fisted every at bat and the ball falls in, stats tell you he is a good hitter, the other player has productive at bats and moves the runners over to help the team, but stats tell you he cant hit. I know which player I would be taking....... Don't pay too much attention with stats. Selectors / coaches look at the players tools. ( power, speed, arm strength etc) not how many hits he got in a 3 day tournament
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Post by T on Oct 25, 2009 19:42:40 GMT 10
Sample size, guys.
Sample size.
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Post by BQ Moderator on Oct 25, 2009 22:15:06 GMT 10
Selection issues will always be a hot topic and many valid comments it seems from all sides in this particular thread. Some posts strayed way off the original topic into personal conflict in my opinion and they have been deleted.
We never wanted to censor this board but in this case if it is WAY off topic AND considered personal abuse, THE POST WILL BE DELETED.
To explain to those who have asked me personally by PM, The Board PM system between posters is the same as any personal and private communication system ( Face to Face Verbal, Email, Phone ). Other board members including the moderators do not need to know about personal messages and cannot read them unless they are the intended recipient.
There are so many knowledgable baseball people across a broad spectrum already on the BQ forum and their input is always valued. Please keep any private personal conflict messages private and not made public on the Forum.
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Post by homerun on Oct 25, 2009 22:57:06 GMT 10
oldmate, the stats show up EVERYTHING. Yes they do, if read correctly. The productivity or non productivity of the hits is all there. If you only factor in one aspect, ofcourse it will give a distorted understanding of a players ability when taken out of context.. Ofcourse what you say about an individual's unique skills ie speed strength etc are major factors that can be fairly checked with beep tests.Yet again, if the test was done, a fair assessment of a player's abilities would not be biased but scientifically recorded and would eliminate any subjective selections.
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Post by homerun on Oct 25, 2009 23:29:03 GMT 10
Wildpitch, you acknowledge that kids are not given their fair chance to play at the tournament and mention that it is fairly well known that this is so. Isn't the tournament about putting kids on show fairly and equally because isn't that the inferred meaning of a trial? They have proven themselves to be there and have paid the same amount of money and have put in the same amount of training, don't they deserve to have equal amount of consideration? In which case, change the rules to 50%participaton PER DAY not per tournament. what do you think?
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Post by JRA Qld2 on Oct 25, 2009 23:44:06 GMT 10
Participation is hard enough as it is...
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Post by madmax on Oct 25, 2009 23:54:42 GMT 10
you don't know what you are talking about if you don't know that batting BP at training is TOTALLY different to batting in a real game. the pressure is on during the game. this is why they say the game is 90% mental and it is. as far as I am concerned, kids that are fantastic during tryouts and training but choke during a game are chokers. they can't handle the pressure and need more game time to improve the mental part of their game.
for this reason, stats during a tournament are an excellent starting point for picking team. I'm not saying stats are the be-all and end-all but someone (selection coach) should have a d**n good reason for overlooking a kid performing well in the pressure of a tournament over a superstar that only seems to look good during training...
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Post by madmax on Oct 26, 2009 0:01:23 GMT 10
and a champion team (who hit dribblers at 1000 but manage to get on base every time for the team) will always beat a team of champions (who have great power, speed, arm strength).
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Post by wildpitch23 on Oct 26, 2009 1:09:42 GMT 10
Homerun, I agree that in the perfect world, this would be great. Unfortunately, in the real world, the participation rule only allows for a MINIMUM of 50% so that some kids still would be given 50%, some 75% and some 100%. It makes no difference whether it is over the tournament or the day. Some kids will still get less than others .... usually my kids. Have you coached at one of these tournaments? It's a nightmare to work out participation and most coaches spend hours mulling over it. Most regional coaches that I know regard their success by the number of their players that are selected in the State squad. Why would they try to keep someone out?
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