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Post by bobbybillabong on Dec 20, 2009 19:13:27 GMT 10
I thought I'd throw this question out there, since it arose in a game today. (For non-Queensland readers, a lot of this relates to the BQ Bylaws & Rules.)
My basic understanding was that in a 2-hour game an innings commenced before the 2-hour mark was completed, and that an innings commenced with the 3rd out of the previous innings. Exceptions are if home team is ahead, or the 10-run 'mercy' rule (after 3.5 or 4 complete innings) applies. And that the 2-hour mark was 2 hours after scheduled game start.
But then today one manager argued that the game finished exactly on the 2-hour mark, not completing of innings etc. There was also some mention of a 10-minute warning.
I don't find the BQ rules & by-laws clear cut on this. Some quotes:
"Under normal circumstances, games will be considered finished when either the maximum time duration or the maximum innings, as determined by Leagues in their bylaws, is reached." Rules - General Playing Rules - B "All other games [ie not ML] are 2 hours." Bylaw 3.1 "Lower grade games must finish on time." Bylaw 3.3 "An inning started before the scheduled finishing time shall be completed. An inning starts immediately after the final out of the previous innings" Bylaw 3.4 "Any game started late must finish at the scheduled time." Bylaw 3.9
So one reading is that the game stops at the scheduled time (BL 3.3, 3.9). Another is that you complete the innings (BL 3.4). A third is that you let the game go for 2 hours (Rules & BL 3.1).
The clear reason for limits is so that subsequent games aren't pushed back (which is why there's a 30-minute gap).
Q1: If we take the 'complete the innings' approach, what happens when an innings commenced not long before the 2-hour mark ends up dragging on into, or close to, the start time for the next game (ie fills up the 30-minute buffer?)
Q2: Is there a BQ writing (or convention) that supports the 'stop on the hour' argument that the manager put forth? (Further context was that it was Major B to be followed by Major A double header.)
A lot of this seems to come back to what BQ mean by "on time" or "the scheduled time" in their bylaws.
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Post by JRA Qld2 on Dec 20, 2009 19:20:58 GMT 10
I think 3.3 would be the only one to apply for all games affected by double headers as it is specific to double headers.
Any lower grade games would finish on the hour and revert if necessary. So the coach got it right. Wait on an official word from QBUA, but I believe that is the correct ruling.
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Post by T on Dec 20, 2009 19:35:36 GMT 10
yes, when a double header is on the lower grades finish exactly on time, no completion of innings.
seems like a redundant rule to me, given there's a half hour between games now.
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Post by wildpitch23 on Dec 20, 2009 22:00:00 GMT 10
Bobby, I think that the manager of the team that you played needs to read the current rules.
By-Law 3.3 only applies "in the event of double headers..." so cannot be applied to most game days. You have said, though, that this was a Major B game to be followed by a double header so in this case, he was correct to say the game had to finish right on time, not to complete the innings.
By-Law 3.4 is as reads....very clear but, I believe is overridden in the instance of a double header following.
What is not clear, is the term "scheduled time". I believe, in accordance with By-Law 3.1, all games should be 2 hours long and that all players, no matter what grade, are entitled to compete in a game of this duration. However, By-Law 3.9 contradicts this if "scheduled time" means the time on the clock...ie 2pm - 4pm. Because of this conflict, we must take "scheduled finish time" as being 2 hours after the start.
By-Law 3.9, throws a spanner in the works and means that a game can be cut short if the preceding game goes over time to complete their innings. I agree with T when he points out that there is plenty of time allowed between games to let everyone have a fair go.
The manager, however, is mistaken when he quotes a "ten minute warning". The only place this exists is in the BQ Tournament Rules and is very often quoted, particularly in the lower grades.
These rules definitely need to be more clearly written before next season as it leads to different interpretations every week.
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Post by bobbybillabong on Dec 21, 2009 22:21:59 GMT 10
I reckon there are two issues. 1 - Good guidance on how to deal with a 'finish on time' game. 2 - The wisdom of having two different conventions in regular season.
Here are some more semi-structured thoughts.
If we take "finish on time" to mean "finish 2 hours after scheduled start time" (and I know some lawyers, bush and otherwise, who would argue that that is just one of a number of interpretations!) that then potentially puts a lot of pressure on the umpire. I know the UIC is the official timekeeper (unless delegated etc etc) but it's easy to create a number of scenarios (see a couple below) where a 'call the game' decision that varies by a minute or so in either direction can have a significant effect on the outcome.
In regular season the game is usually completed at a natural break in the game (ie half-inning), with the guidance that innings started before scheduled finish are completed. We have two mechanisms to deal with time overruns: 1) 30 minutes between games 2) later games still finish on scheduled time.
Yet on days with a double header, even with these controls, we invoke a variation.
The variation makes sense for tournament play because it's a clearly understood feature of the tournament, and with tight scheduling tournament directors don't want snowballing time overruns.
But in regular season, we play most games by one convention and a couple by another. And the thing is, there might only be three games on that day anyway!
I would like to see the by-laws clearer on this, because in one of those "this is the way we've always done things" discussions with agitated managers, unclear bylaws are less than helpful.
As for 'finish on time' scenarios, here's a couple:
A: Knowing that in a time game 4 (or 3.5) innings makes a regulation game, let's say we had a late start and slow game (15 min grace for late arrival, slow changes, several heated discussion with a manager, a couple of pitching changes) and we're only just into the top of the 4th when the umpire's watch shows scheduled finish time. Call it now, and we have a 'no game'.
B: Visiting team was leading at the end of the 4th, but now in the bottom of the 5th the score is tied, with the winning run on 2nd, and the watch shows scheduled finish time. Call it now and we have a regulation game and a visitor win on count back (I'm no expert on scoring but I think that's right). Call it in a couple of minutes and the home team might win.
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Post by JRA Qld2 on Dec 22, 2009 11:28:33 GMT 10
I believe 15 minutes grace for late arrival is only in junior games as per 3.17 even though I have seen it used in seniors several times.
At the end of the day, if a manager or the teams fart asses around for long enough to delay the game that it will only go for 3 complete innings, then either only they have to blame for the 'no game' or the umpire wasn't in control enough to get the game moving. Realistically, the majority of SQBL A games will go for 5 or 6 complete innings, so you'd have to waste a good 20-30 minutes.
As for scenario B, I guess you just have to account for that situation at the start of the game, it may go in your favour or not. I know in softball, they have this rule in place for almost all junior games, a coach just has to adapt to deal with it.
If you're flogging someone, which is a situation where a technical 'no game' may be called, BQI have indicated that it will still be counted as a game, but there should be something in the by-laws rather than an informal indication.
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Post by QBUA on Jan 3, 2010 6:24:40 GMT 10
This is a GOOD THREAD, it shows how this forum can work with discussions about Rules etc.
I totally agree about everyones situation with the different conflicting interpretations of bylaws and how the written word of one bylaw can conflict with another. This is the way I see it.
Yes Bobby, your right, it is hard on umpires when these situations occur. Not only to umpire their own prospective game, but to make decisions that affect the possible start and finish times of other games that follow so that all games may be completed or possibly completed.
When you look at it this way, the umpires who turn up to do a C Grade game, usually a level O, and is stuck with such a situation in C Grade, may actually be making a decision at 9, 9:15AM, or the End of Game CALL, that may effect the game result of the A Grade game. This is not to say that those umpires do this knowing how the day will play out, no one does. Its the ripple effect.
Lets go through the Rules Little and some decisions that have to be made. This is my interpretation.
10 minute Rule......not needed, does not apply.
On days where there is a Double Header, all preceding games to the Major A first game, must finish at their scheduled finish time, IE: game scheduled to start at 8:30am, must finish at 10:30am. On DH days, the actually time of day takes affect.
A, B and C Grades = one game each. Unless special circumstances apply, the game should be 2 hours in duration, from the actual start of the game, and, or, complete the innings if needed.
We, the QBUA, use game start, to be from the end of the plate meeting, therefore, any time wasting by the home team to take the field for the first innings does not effect the game start time. Waiting for the call, PLAY, can add 4-5 minutes to the game.
If the game starts late because of a team and not weather etc, talk to the umpires at the plate meeting to confirm when the game will finish, then, everyone is on the same page, if one does not agree, work it out before the game starts, include the scorers if necessary, they have the bylaws at hand and usually up to date with them.This eliminates most of the confusion and conflict that occurs at the end of the game.
For the first game, one team does not have 8 players to legally start the game, what is the reason?, maybe give alittle leaway, then, is the time rolling on to far, is any reason valid? should the umpire be warning of a forfeit? No one wants both teams not playing, going home for nothing, it is amazing how many times this situation is blamed mostly on the umpire, and not the team that caused it. Everyone wants to play the game in a competition situation, and every club wants money to be spent in the canteen. At some stage, something has to happen. No matter what the umpire does, someone is not happy.
JRA, interesting use of words, but would a team really F/A/A just to make the game a possible no game. If a team can not take the field with the required number of players, then they FORFEIT, not a no gamer. No one can accurately predict what will happen in a game, I've done games where the first innings takes over an hour, than then done games where you can have 4 innings in an hour.
Usually it's the VISITING TEAM who does not have enough to start properly, since they bat first, here are somethings to think about; IMPORTANT: 1. Tell the scorers what you are going to do. 2. Everyone should be in agreement with the following
1. Make them have a line up straight away with the players they do have, 6 or 7 is ok for me. 1a. Don't let them use the excuse that their 3 or 4 batter is on his way, and they don't want to do a lineup. If they refuse, at least give them a warning of a possible forfeit. If they comply: 2. Start the game, and go through the lineup as per normal. 3. Once they run out of actual batters at the field, then straight having AUTOMATIC OUTS. 4. Then if they can take the field with 8 players, let them take the field, when I use to play, we would start with 7 just to have a game. 5. If they can not make a fielding side, then everyone come together and have a chat for about 60 seconds (not much longer), and discuss what may be the next call. Remembering that is the umpires call eventually. 6. If still the same situation, call the game a FORFEIT. 7. If you are really lucky, the required players have arrived.
All of the above is for consideration with All senior games, except Major B and Major A.
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Post by scorekeeper on Mar 5, 2010 11:22:47 GMT 10
B: Visiting team was leading at the end of the 4th, but now in the bottom of the 5th the score is tied, with the winning run on 2nd, and the watch shows scheduled finish time. Call it now and we have a regulation game and a visitor win on count back (I'm no expert on scoring but I think that's right). Call it in a couple of minutes and the home team might win. I think the situation when a countback to the last completed inning is required - and when it is not - is very important to clarify and stipulate in the by-laws, as it is not recognised in the OABR. At present there is inadequate guidance. Here is my thought on reverting back to a previous inning - the only times when a partially completed inning should be scrapped are when during the incomplete inning the game result has changed in favour of the visiting team or the visiting team has tied up the score - and the home team has not retaken the lead when the game is called. If the incomplete inning does not change the game result in favour of the Visitors (ie, the same team wins or it's a tie game whether reverted or not), then all of that inning's plays should stand. Refer to OBR 4.11(d) & 10.03(e)(1). Since we don't suspend games, OBR 4.12(a)(5) gives the guidance as to when the inning must revert back. To paraphrase the rules: A called game ends at the moment the umpire terminates play... If a regulation game is called (terminated), the official scorer shall include the record of all individual and team actions up to the moment the game ends... A game shall become a suspended game (in our case - the inning in progress will be scrapped)...if a regulation game is called (terminated) while an inning is in progress and before the inning is completed, and the visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead (or tie the score) and the home team has not retaken the lead...(otherwise there is no reverting back). Simply, if during an incomplete inning the game is called (and it is regulation), and - ~ home team is winning - do not revert back. ~ visiting team is winning and they were winning at the last complete inning - do not revert back. ~ game is tied and it was tied at the last complete inning, or the home team was losing - do not revert back. ~ visiting team is winning or the score is tied but the home team was winning at the last complete inning - DO revert back. My feeling on the scenario quoted above (B.) is that the inning does not require a countback as the game result has changed in favour of the home team. I think the only time a countback should ever be used is when a game result would change in favour of the visiting team if the incomplete inning is allowed to stand. There should also be clarification of the status of any statistics created in an inning scrapped due to countback. Just as homeruns hit in washouts (ie, not a regulation game) are not recorded in the stats, it seems logical to also scrap the stats created in erased innings - but is that fair? And is everyone following the same procedure? Hopefully awards aren't being given to the wrong players because of this.
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Post by wildpitch23 on Mar 5, 2010 17:03:50 GMT 10
Question: What is a "timed" game? I really would love to hear everyone's interpretation of this term.
Given that the GBL By-Law states...
"3.1 All games in the Major League and Pacific League A grade are nine innings, or if a night game then it will be nine innings or 21/2 hours whichever comes first." .... then isn't A Grade Nightball a timed game?
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Post by nuke on Mar 5, 2010 23:35:15 GMT 10
In answer to your ruling quote wildpitch - an A grade night game is to be played as 9innings. The timing rule only comes into play if the nine innings will not be completed or continues longer. It reads as the first thing that comes in - ie 9 innings game or exceeding this 2 and half hours. The example of this - a night game goes extra innings - as soon as the game has been played for 2 and half hours - the game is postponed and started again on the sunday. All rulings should be applied to a 9 inning game on friday nights - ie mercy rule after 7 etc.
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Post by scorekeeper on Mar 6, 2010 10:26:41 GMT 10
Question: What is a "timed" game? I really would love to hear everyone's interpretation of this term. Given that the GBL By-Law states... "3.1 All games in the Major League and Pacific League A grade are nine innings, or if a night game then it will be nine innings or 21/2 hours whichever comes first." .... then isn't A Grade Nightball a timed game? This needs more clarification in the by-laws, for sure. I believe the Friday games should instead be... ...9 innings, with a 10pm curfew. If the curfew falls during an inning in progress, the inning will be completed - unless the home team is in the lead, in which case only the top of the inning in progress must be completed. NOTE: OABR 4.12(a)(1,2) will NOT apply to a Friday night A grade game called (terminated) because of the curfew before 9 innings have been played or 8 1/2 with home team in the lead - i.e. the game will NOT be suspended due to curfew or time limit. The 10-run rule will apply at 7 innings and a regulation game must be 5 innings (or 4 1/2 if the home team is in the lead).This is the current interpretation being applied by BQ/GBL, so it should be stated as such.
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Post by QBUA on Mar 6, 2010 10:45:06 GMT 10
Fellow posters, please correct me if I'm wrong, there seems to be a slight misinterpretation of the Bylaws here.
Time games are for basically when there are games scheduled on the same diamond after that time game.
Nine innings game, is a game that is as per the Rules of baseball, game duration is nine innings if a can finish with a winner, if not, the game will continue until the game has a winner as per Rules for calling (finishing) a game.
A Major A or Pacific A (Night Game), 1. The game could go 9 or more innings. If the game does continue beyond 9 innings, there are at least 2 possibilities to stop or suspend the game, 2. Game has proceded for 2 1/2 hours. 2a. If you can have a winner, part of inning or a completion of any inning, then the game is stopped at that point. (no new inning) 3. Club curfew, lights must be out by a set time. (this is a possible suspended game)
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Post by QBUA on Mar 6, 2010 10:57:27 GMT 10
Scorekeeper, your posting popped up while I was typing mine.
Is the word (CURFEW) being used in the right text with regard to the bylaws.
In my opinion, a CURFEW, is when a sporting body can not impact on the surrounding community with regard to lights, noise or other. (local government regulation)
To have a CURFEW at 10 pm, you have to stop before that time, so not to impact on the community at 10pm.
In the past, games have gone all the way up to 11pm at least, has it changed this year. (Ipswich)
Late add on to my posting, what if a game can get 10 innings in inside 2 1/2 hours.
Thanks.
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Post by wildpitch23 on Mar 6, 2010 11:30:50 GMT 10
This discussion is the perfect example of how badly our By-Laws (the rules that specifically govern our competition) are written. The fact that Scorekeeper and QBUA, people that both know the rules of the game well, can be debating about what things mean, shows that the rest of us have no hope at all. Rules should be very clear and simply written. If anything is open to interpretation, it should be discussed and sorted BEFORE the competition begins.
A By-Laws committee should be set up (with representatives from all levels...not just Maj A) to discuss and iron out potential problems well before the next season starts.
This is by no means the only rule that has been debated and often leads to ill-feeling within the baseball community.
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Post by QBUA on Mar 6, 2010 12:06:17 GMT 10
Wildpitch, I see your point. I, personally would like to do a few things, but, I just have to wait and see.
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