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Post by mstaylor on Oct 7, 2009 23:04:24 GMT 10
As Kyle so aptly put, this not an interpretation, it is black letter law. The second half of that sentence,"or to make a play." is the black letter. Hitdog: The only thing I see QBUA left out of his explanation is the dropped thrid strike and first occupied is applicable with two outs only. The rest of the post is valid. I believe he was more concerned with question asked about as it pertained to throwing ahead of a runner that he didn't qualify. I think Kyle and QBUA have answered this quite well.
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Post by QBUA on Oct 10, 2009 9:56:35 GMT 10
Am I missing something here? The runner is committed after going past halfway? This isn't t-ball we're talking about here. The runner at 1st has to run because he's forced after the dropped 3rd strike? Are you kidding me? I'll give QBUA a chance to clarify for me if I've misread what's been posted - but my concern here is that people may read the rule and know the rule, but have very little understanding of WHY the rule is written. And until they do, they're not going to be particularly good umpires in my opinion. Hitdog, yes you have missed something here. As umpires, we see what is infront of us, not what may happen if every play possible happened at once. 1. The thread title is PICKING OFF TO AN UNOCCUPIED BASE. The question concerned reference to the thread title. 2. The pitcher can not physically pickoff and throw ONE ball to a base and to the batter for a dropped third strike, unless he cuts the ball in half. If they try to, we will get them with tampering with the ball, OK. 3. There is NO reference to a pitched ball to the plate. 4. With a runner on first base, with 2 outs, I believe, (correct me if I'm wrong), R1 is forced to run, until that force is removed. Thanks Mstaylor
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cstrobe
Rookie Ball Player
Posts: 5
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Post by cstrobe on Jul 16, 2015 3:46:42 GMT 10
Am I missing something here? The runner is committed after going past halfway? This isn't t-ball we're talking about here. The runner at 1st has to run because he's forced after the dropped 3rd strike? Are you kidding me? I'll give QBUA a chance to clarify for me if I've misread what's been posted - but my concern here is that people may read the rule and know the rule, but have very little understanding of WHY the rule is written. And until they do, they're not going to be particularly good umpires in my opinion. Hitdog, yes you have missed something here. As umpires, we see what is infront of us, not what may happen if every play possible happened at once. 1. The thread title is PICKING OFF TO AN UNOCCUPIED BASE. The question concerned reference to the thread title. 2. The pitcher can not physically pickoff and throw ONE ball to a base and to the batter for a dropped third strike, unless he cuts the ball in half. If they try to, we will get them with tampering with the ball, OK. 3. There is NO reference to a pitched ball to the plate. 4. With a runner on first base, with 2 outs, I believe, (correct me if I'm wrong), R1 is forced to run, until that force is removed. Thanks Mstaylor
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cstrobe
Rookie Ball Player
Posts: 5
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Post by cstrobe on Jul 16, 2015 4:06:17 GMT 10
This is very easy to explain. The rule says it is a balk if pitcher picks to an unoccupied base UNLESS it is for the purpose of making a play. People forget the part about UNLESS ITS FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING A PLAY. The rule book also says appeals for runners missing the base or not tagging up are not considered as making a play, therefore what play would this be? Answer is stealing early, stealing before the pitcher GOES HOME with his motion, so yes the pitcher can still pick to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play if they lift their leg up with their motion because lifting the leg is not going home, the pitcher moving their motion towards home is going home. It must be completely obvious the pitcher picked to the unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, meaning it must be obvious the pitcher did not plan on picking to the unoccupied base untill the runner is stealing. Why dont the pros pick to an unoccupied base more often? Only 5% of pros steal bases & the pros are good, they don't need to do this, but in little league it would kill. Read THE WHOLE rulebook & see if I'm wrong.
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cstrobe
Rookie Ball Player
Posts: 5
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Post by cstrobe on Jul 16, 2015 4:25:27 GMT 10
Puff, like many do including myself my first 8 years of umpiring your missing the 2nd half of the sentence that has the rule about not picking to unoccupied base. The rule says its a balk when pitcher picks to an unoccupied base UNLESS it is for the purpose of making a play.....think about it, what play do think that is? consider rules also say appeals for runners missing the base or not tagging up are not considered making a play so what play would if be? There is no named play but stealing early is it, stealing before the pitcher GOES HOME with his motion. It must be obvious the pitcher wasn't planning on origionally picking off to the unoccupied base untill the runner is stealing. GOES HOME with his motion!!! So yes the pitcher can lift leg up then pick if they steal before he GOES HOME with his motion. Consider if pitcher pauses his leg when he lifts it like some do he must go home or that would be deceiving runner. So if you are a runner, you don't want to steal untill the pitcher GOES HOME with his motion.
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cstrobe
Rookie Ball Player
Posts: 5
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Post by cstrobe on Jul 16, 2015 4:31:24 GMT 10
Unless u want a balk called make sure the umpire knows the rule before trying to pick to unoccupied base for reason of making a play, which isn't a balk......purpose of making a play....
Ive umpired 16 years & called this a balk for my 1st 8 years & nobody said anything. I'm seeing now more umps & people are learning this rule but many still don't.
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cstrobe
Rookie Ball Player
Posts: 5
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Post by cstrobe on Jul 16, 2015 4:49:13 GMT 10
On 3-2 count 2 outs runner on 1st, the only way the pitcher can legally pick to 2nd is if runner on 1st starts stealing 2nd BEFORE THE PITCHER GOES HOME since the rule is the pitcher can't pick to an unoccupied base UNLESS its for the purpose of making a play. Once pitcher GOES HOME he must keep going. Considering appeals for missing a base or tag ups are not considered making a play, what play would that be? Answer is stealing early. So a stealing runner needs to wait till pitcher GOES HOME with his motion. Read the rule again, section 8. Everybody misses the meaning of the 2nd half of that rule which says "unless its for the purpose of making play".
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cdub
Tee Baller
Posts: 1
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Post by cdub on Mar 1, 2021 15:21:57 GMT 10
There seems to be an interpretation now that it is not an unoccupied base if the baserunner is stealing toward that base. Example: runner on 2b breaks toward 3rd so the pitcher picks off straight toward 3rd baseman. If this is the case everytime there is a runner on 1st base with 2 out and 3-2 on the hitter the pitcher should do an inside move toward 2nd base, the baserunner is going everytime and now by the interpretation 2nd base is occupied because he is heading there. I believe this to be a case of interpreting the rule the wrong way.
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