Pick off to an unoccupied base

[puff]

There seems to be an interpretation now that it is not an unoccupied base if the baserunner is stealing toward that base.
Example: runner on 2b breaks toward 3rd so the pitcher picks off straight toward 3rd baseman.

If this is the case everytime there is a runner on 1st base with 2 out and 3-2 on the hitter the pitcher should do an inside move toward 2nd base, the baserunner is going everytime and now by the interpretation 2nd base is occupied because he is heading there.

I believe this to be a case of interpreting the rule the wrong way.

[QBUA]

Puff, thanks for your question.

It is actually a very good question, as it seems that people out there may have wrong way to look at plays and rules and their interpretation of those rules.

This is what we call, putting the horse before the cart.

Unoccupied base: Is a base that does not have a runner at that base. No runner is legally occupying that base.

Reason for rule: Not allowed to throw, or feint a throw to an unoccupied base, would have been included into the rules, to prevent time wasting.
As a legitimate pick off is not time wasting within the RULES.

RULE 8.05 (d): the pitcher,while touching the pitcher's plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base ,except for the purpose of making a play.

Play 1: If the runner, lets say R1 (runner legally occupying 1st base), attempts to steal 2nd base (committed) , in a full sprint, and the pitcher sees this, the pitcher can turn and pick off to 2nd base.
Ruling: This is OK.

Play 2: The runner fakes a steal move, and does not commit themselves to the steal.
The pitcher does not access the play correctly and picks off to 2nd base, regardless that the runner is not stealing.
Ruling: This is a BALK.

Just because the runner makes a fake move, does not give the pitcher an option of any base.

This is what we look for:
1. a balk
2. the pitch
3. check swing or batter hit by ball while in the box.
4. pick off to 1st base
5. steal
6. play at 2nd base.
7. wide throw - (do we now have another play).
The reason I included all these possibilities is that you must have the play first, then you apply the rules.

I hope this has helped you.

[puff]

I still believe this interpretation to be wrong, if the pitcher sees the runner in a full sprint attempting to steal surely he needs to disengage the rubber by stepping off the back and then throw to the base. This is what has always been taught when teaching young pitchers and what all pitchers practice. As I stated earlier evert time we have a runner at 1st base with 3-2 count and 2 out the baserunner is running so a pitcher can do an inside move to 2nd base and deceive him every time.
I am not an umpire, but I just dont believe this rule to be interpreted correctly.

[QBUA]

PUFF, yes, the pitchers are taught to step off the back, that is probably the best move they can make as a habit.
Just because pitchers are taught to do things as a habit, and there for muscle memory, does not stop them from using all the rules in the book to their advantage.
I could teach your pitchers a couple of moves to make runners think twice, not illegally deceiving, but within the rules of baseball.
If a pitcher can use a move that puts the runner on the back foot and mentally thinking about diving back to his base instead of stealing, legally, wouldn't that be great for his stats.

Now to your statement, their is no sense in being against the rule, it will not change, learn to live with it and understand it.
It can work in your favor.

You LEFT OUT ONE IMPORTANT PIECE OF INFORMATION, most of the time, I hear something else,
"MAKE SURE HE IS GOING TO THE PLATE."
You left that part out. This is a critical part of teaching base runners to steal, isn't it?
Unless your runner is going on the first move by the pitch.

Understanding what commits the pitcher to deliver the ball to the batter without interruption helps alot.

As far as I am aware, teaching base running, you must include what a pitcher may or may not do.
When I use to play and coach, one of the things is to look at the pitchers pivot foot, that's the one on the rubber, if he lifts his heel, then he is going to pick off.
Maybe too many people are only looking at the heel.

There are many ways to get a jump on the pitcher,
but that is not my job here.
We give people information, we do not coach.
HINT: What are the pitchers habits.

[puff]

Ok, runner on 1st base with less than 2 outs.
By the ruling if the runner takes off toward 2b the pitcher is permitted to do an inside move to throw to 2nd base to get the runner, as stated previously.

What if the runner leaves early to break toward 2nd base and the pitcher pitches instead and it is a dropped 3rd strike which gets away from the catcher?
Where is the unoccupied base? If it is 1st base then the hitter can be safe at 1st or if 2nd base is unccupied the pitcher is not permitted to pick off there.

I am just trying to understand.

[QBUA]

PUFF, thanks for looking at this play.

Here is the game sequence broken down as the way we (experienced umpires see the game) see it.

1. Lets say batter 1 gets a walk and goes to 1st base.

2. At this stage, the pitcher is an infielder, as he has not stepped onto the rubber to make him a pitcher.

Now: 1st base is legally occupied by what we call R1 (runner at 1st).
2nd base is unoccupied, no runner is legally gained the base.

3. Pitcher steps onto the rubber, now he is the pitcher, and is governed by all rules pertaining to a pitcher.

4. R1 breaks early, but pitcher is committed to the pitch.

5. drop 3rd strike, the defensive team must retire the batter/runner before he reaches 1st base.

6. R1, originally at 1st base, technically still is the occupying runner of 1st base. HOWEVER, R1 is forced to run to 2nd, because of the dropped 3rd strike, R1 can not just stand there.

Now: At this stage, technically, 2nd is unoccupied until R1 legally touches 2nd base.

7. R1 touches 2nd base legally, now 2nd base is occupied.
8. Lets say that the batter/runner is thrown out (retired).

Now: 1st base is unoccupied, no runner at that base.

9. If the batter/runner reached 1st base before being retired, then 1st base would be occupied.

When we look at how to interpret the rules, we have to know the exact game situation.

Now: lets say that the batter/runner made 1st base.
Following information is for this play we are talking about.

It's when the pitcher steps back onto the rubber, that is when we now say (1st and 2nd bases are occupied, and 3rd base is unoccupied).

Did that help you. This is how we see the game.

While we on the subject of occupied bases, I throw this play/rule to everyone.

No matter how many are out, 1st base and 2nd base occupied.
(R1 is the runner at 1st base) (R2 is the runner at 2nd base)

1. Pitcher is on the rubber.

2. R1 runs to second base. R2 goes back and stands of second.

Now: both R1 and R2 are standing on second base.

3. Pitcher either disengages, or picks off to 2nd base, which the shortstop catches.

4. Shortstop tags R1 and then tags R2 while both are standing on 2nd.

WHO'S OUT................. R1 is OUT.

Why: R2 still legally occupies 2nd base, until, he is retired by the defensive team, or, by the batters actions, R2 is forced to run to 3rd because of a force play.

[QBUA]

I have been thinking about a short version of describing a runner committed to a steal and the pick off to an unoccupied base.

Everyone, think of yourself as an umpire on the field.

Runner at 1st base only, no other runners.

Play 1: If the Runner (R1) breaks for 2nd base,
and when the runner is half way to 2nd base
(they are committed),
the pitcher sees this, and turns and picks off to 2nd,
by the time the pitcher releases the ball and one of the pivots catch the ball,
the runner would be somewhere around the cutout at 2nd.
LEGAL (NOT A BALK)

Play 2: If the runner (R1) breaks for 2nd base,
but only takes 3 to 4 steps and stops (fakes a steal),
then they have not committed themselves to the steal,
the pitcher thinking the runner is stealing,
turns and throws to 2nd.
R1 is still around 1st base.
ILLEGAL PICK OFF (BALK)


If you had runner's at 1st and 2nd, then those situations would also be applicable for R2 with 3rd base being unoccupied.

[kylebyrne]

Ok,

There is one mistake everyone seems to be making here...

You are saying that the interpretation is that if a guy is stealing to 2nd then he is occupying 2nd therefore allowing the pitcher to pickoff legally...

This is INCORRECT

The rule as it has always been stated in the rules and is not just an interpretation, is that a pitcher may throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play. Therefore is the runner is stealing 2nd base the pitcher may wheel around and pickoff to 2nd base in order to make a play on the runner.

1st base is still the occupied base for the purpose of the drop 3rd strike scenario...

Questions?

[QBUA]

NO Kyle, I'm not sure where I confused anyone. I gave two examples.
!. with a runner on first only
2. with runners on first and second.
Just in case, people got the idea that it only works with a runner on first only.

Can you give me a reference of where I may have confused anyone please.

[kylebyrne]

I was just reading through the posts on here, and a base being occupied by a runner or not was mentioned too much in detail. the initial question was about the pitcher picking off to an unoccupied base. I wanted to make the answer nice and simple, by stating that you dont need to know or worry wether a base is occupied or not, it comes down to a pitcher making a play on the runner..

That is the simple answer to the original question here.. i just didnt see the point in going into detail about bases being occupied or not..

[QBUA]

Kyle, I see where your coming from.
Yes, I have been told that sometimes i give to much of an explanation, however,
in our Level O courses, we throw so much at the parents and others in 4 hours,
that we are sure, that some of it goes over the fence, that is understandable.

I break it down sometimes, because, I am thinking, that people want to know exactly what we are seeing and how to determine various situations.

It's like what we (umpires) teach about what is fair territory and the ball being touched in fair territory, sometimes you just have to show them.

Puff and ramsfan44 have some good questions, I wonder what their experience is?

Once again, thanks for your input.

[bokasaaya]

I could be wrong here....but you can usually tell whether it is a balk or not...if a base-runner has pulled up after half way...they are usually committed...if before...then to me it would be a clear case of balk if the pitcher threw to the advancing base.

Obviously this would not work on an attempted steal to home plate

[QBUA]

Jun 22, 2009 11:35:28 GMT 10 bokasaaya said:

I could be wrong here....but you can usually tell whether it is a balk or not...if a base-runner has pulled up after half way...they are usually committed...if before...then to me it would be a clear case of balk if the pitcher threw to the advancing base.

Obviously this would not work on an attempted steal to home plate

Sorry for the late response on your posting.
Interesting statement about RUNNER STEALING HOME.
What would the pitcher have to do?

[williemays_hays]

Jan 10, 2009 21:10:02 GMT 10 QBUA said:

PUFF, thanks for looking at this play.

Here is the game sequence broken down as the way we (experienced umpires see the game) see it.

1. Lets say batter 1 gets a walk and goes to 1st base.

2. At this stage, the pitcher is an infielder, as he has not stepped onto the rubber to make him a pitcher.

Now: 1st base is legally occupied by what we call R1 (runner at 1st).
2nd base is unoccupied, no runner is legally gained the base.

3. Pitcher steps onto the rubber, now he is the pitcher, and is governed by all rules pertaining to a pitcher.

4. R1 breaks early, but pitcher is committed to the pitch.

5. drop 3rd strike, the defensive team must retire the batter/runner before he reaches 1st base.

6. R1, originally at 1st base, technically still is the occupying runner of 1st base. HOWEVER, R1 is forced to run to 2nd, because of the dropped 3rd strike, R1 can not just stand there.

Now: At this stage, technically, 2nd is unoccupied until R1 legally touches 2nd base.

7. R1 touches 2nd base legally, now 2nd base is occupied.
8. Lets say that the batter/runner is thrown out (retired).

Now: 1st base is unoccupied, no runner at that base.

9. If the batter/runner reached 1st base before being retired, then 1st base would be occupied.

When we look at how to interpret the rules, we have to know the exact game situation.

Now: lets say that the batter/runner made 1st base.
Following information is for this play we are talking about.

It's when the pitcher steps back onto the rubber, that is when we now say (1st and 2nd bases are occupied, and 3rd base is unoccupied).

Did that help you. This is how we see the game.

While we on the subject of occupied bases, I throw this play/rule to everyone.

No matter how many are out, 1st base and 2nd base occupied.
(R1 is the runner at 1st base) (R2 is the runner at 2nd base)

1. Pitcher is on the rubber.

2. R1 runs to second base. R2 goes back and stands of second.

Now: both R1 and R2 are standing on second base.

3. Pitcher either disengages, or picks off to 2nd base, which the shortstop catches.

4. Shortstop tags R1 and then tags R2 while both are standing on 2nd.

WHO'S OUT................. R1 is OUT.

Why: R2 still legally occupies 2nd base, until, he is retired by the defensive team, or, by the batters actions, R2 is forced to run to 3rd because of a force play.

[williemays_hays]

Am I missing something here? The runner is committed after going past halfway? This isn't t-ball we're talking about here. The runner at 1st has to run because he's forced after the dropped 3rd strike? Are you kidding me?
I'll give QBUA a chance to clarify for me if I've misread what's been posted - but my concern here is that people may read the rule and know the rule, but have very little understanding of WHY the rule is written. And until they do, they're not going to be particularly good umpires in my opinion.