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Post by bobbybillabong on Jan 21, 2010 12:11:34 GMT 10
Here's a couple of conversation starters.
1) Must the pitcher come to a complete stop in the set?
2) When taking signs the pitcher's foot should be in contact with the rubber, ball can be in either hand, and one hand "shall be on the side".
a) Which hand?
b) What if one hand isn't by the side?
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Post by oldmate on Jan 21, 2010 17:47:15 GMT 10
1) yes they must. otherwise its a quick pitch and a balk.
2) foot in contact with rubber, yes, ball can be anywhere, in the hand, in the glove, hand doesnt have to be on the side, it can be behind his back,.
a) either, it doesnt matter
b) nothing will happen, there is no rule that says it must be by the side.
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Post by bobbybillabong on Jan 23, 2010 16:11:27 GMT 10
1) yes they must. otherwise its a quick pitch and a balk. One reason I called this a conversation starter is that tucked over in OABR 8.01(b) is the comment "With no runners on base the pitcher is not required to come to a complete stop...". Many of us assume that the set is defined in part by the complete stop, but it needn't happen. Whether it is a quick pitch is an umpire judgement, as I read it. But without runners on it can't be a balk. b) nothing will happen, there is no rule that says it must be by the side. Actually, there is - OABR 8.01(b) fourth para "Prior to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on the side." The intent seems to be to ensure that the hands are separate before coming set, since there's nothing in the description of the set (1st para) that says there should be a joining of the hands. A common sign taking position is glove hand forward, throwing hand - with ball - against the back, but I have also seen pitchers with both hands dangling forward. The point of interest really is what are the bounds on where the hands can be, given the rules. |
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Post by QBUA on Jan 27, 2010 15:17:12 GMT 10
Bobby, don't worry to much, most Rules were written along time ago, and stay the same in the written state.
1. Yes, when taking signs, the pitcher has to be in contact with the rubber.
2. The ball can be in either hand.
Normally, the hand to the side or behind is the throwing hand, I'm sure that this was the hand that they thought about when making the Rule.
3. Some pitchers now, swing the throwing arm while receiving signals, this is OK.
4. The hand behind the back, is OK, but they have to be careful.
What we are looking for is the movement of the hand, showing the beginning of they motion, this is VOLUNTARY MOVEMENT, once the pitcher moves that hand, they can not stop and look for signals again, they have started their movement. This is more common with the ball in the throwing hand at that time.
If the pitcher starts their motion and stops it before having the hands come together, and stops, say to get another signal, it is a START STOP, (Balk). In the Brisbane league, we don't call it that much, it is determined at the time, as how much has the pitcher deceived the runner/runners.
5. The ball can be in the glove, usually that arm is resting on the knee, in this situation, the pitcher can put his throwing hand into his glove, MOMENTARILY, to adjust the ball, one adjustment should be enough, two adjustments is borderline to a balk.
Also having the glove hand to long is borderline to a balk.
Yes, once starting their movement in the set situation, they have 3 options, (a) pick off (b) step off (c) continue and come to a complete stop in the set position.
The whole body, except the head, has to be stopped at the same time, if the legs start moving to the plate before the hands have stopped, then there is NO STOP.
From this position, Set, they have 3 options, (a) pickoff (b) step off (c) deliver the ball to the batter.
When in the set, stopped, the hands have to be in front of the body, this is determined as, below the top of the head to the bottom of the toes. There are pitchers out there that stop their hands in front, but, back over the plate, we say this is OK.
Don't worry to much about the no stop with no runners on.
What is the intent of the Rule, helps alto.
The QUICK PITCH (as per the Rule Book) is the same as a QUICK RETURN PITCH (as per some exams running around)
We use, QUICK RETURN PITCH as a reference, this is not a balk from memory, it is a DANGEROUS pitch, where the pitcher is delivering the pitch without the batter being reasonably set, I call it under dangerous play, and warnings etc are as per dangerous play. (A batter not being reasonably set, is not that they does not have their feet where they like, it's more for when the batter is not looking at the pitcher, when the pitcher is either in their delivery or has released the ball.)
I hope this has helped.
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Post by bobbybillabong on Feb 1, 2010 19:33:43 GMT 10
Thanks QBUA - very useful.
I guess if we think about the intent of the rule makers, it was that, to avoid deceiving runners, there are two distinct positions - taking signs, and the set - and there is a clear transition from one to the other. The separated hands is the clearest marker of taking signs.
How about these (and I know it's always hard to describe exactly).
A - Pitcher takes signs with ball in glove hand, bent forward at waist, throwing hand dangling near glove hand. Here the transition to the set is pretty clear since it involves straightening the body, but might involve minimal movement of hands in coming together.
B - Pitcher takes signs with hands as above, but is standing side on to catcher (RHP) Now the transition to the set is not very obvious, and may only involve moving the hands 6 inches or so.
Since a balk is about deceiving the runner(s), it seems to me that one criterion for the hands should be that they're clearly separate to the runner(s) while signs are taken.
Example A is from a game a few weeks ago. There was a clear transition from taking signs to the set, but the hands were quite close throughout.
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Post by QBUA on Feb 1, 2010 20:08:41 GMT 10
Bobby, great questions.
Yes, example A gives the runner, runners a good indication of the pitcher taking signs and movement involving the set.
There is no indication, interpretation or Rule in the book as far as I know, for a sequence of motions that have to occur in order to reach the set, unlike a set system of movements/positioning of body parts for a good effective pitching method.
As long as the hands come together in front of the body and the whole body comes to a complete stop, as mentioned in previous posting.
In regard to the distance of the hands, as long as they do not look together at the start. No Rule on distance, but in saying that, as an umpire, (in club Ball) maybe a quite word that you may look at it as a balk, or concerned over the distance, may indicate to them to open it abit. They may not notice the distance apart.
Example B, I know of 2 extremely good pitchers that have unusual, interesting and very effective set positions, to me, they would have every runner on edge.
A balk is an illegal act by a pitcher to deceive a runner/runners.
Good pitchers can deceive runners within the Rules, deceiving by itself is not and illegal act and therefore not an automatic balk.
Some say "If it looks ugly or unusual, it must be a balk", but then to call a balk, you must be able to explain why it is a balk.
Information to remember:
If a pitcher is simulating/imitating the set position while astride the rubber and not legally incontact with it, that is a balk.
Usually one warning would be enough, unless a play came from that move before you could give a warning.
Not many pitchers do this move unintentionally.
I hope my ramble is not too confusing.
We don't just stand there do we, ;D
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Post by mstaylor on Feb 8, 2010 15:25:41 GMT 10
<B>Since a balk is about deceiving the runner(s), it seems to me that one criterion for the hands should be that they're clearly separate to the runner(s) while signs are taken.
</B>
Deception is a very minor portion of the balk rule. Originally the rule made no mention of deception at all. In the seventies MLB added a bunch of interps to the rulebook. The part about deception is one of the interps.
There are many technical balks that has nothing to do with deceiving anybody. As QBUA says, pitcher are allowed to legally deceive runners. Illegally is a balk, standing astride the rubber without the ball or coming set in that position, throwing to base without stepping toward it are all deception balks. Dropping the ball, blowing through a stop or not stopping in a set are all examples of technical balks. Just don't get too hung up on just one portion and ignore the rest.
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