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Post by T on Sept 21, 2009 22:15:42 GMT 10
about a play that happened in our game yesterday.
I was playing right field, ball hit over my head, one bounce over the fence. I put my hands up to tell the umpires the ball has gone out of play - one calls homerun and the other calls double. (I'm not sure which umpire called which but I didn't envy either of them making the call - looking towards the sun at a mesh fence)
My question is, if two umpires can't agree on a call on plays like this then which umpire overrules? The plate is the chief but the base is in a better position to judge.
(credit to the umpires, they had a discussion and ended up with the right call - double. this isn't the NRL, haha)
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Post by hank1044 on Sept 22, 2009 4:28:34 GMT 10
If the umpires were working a 2 man system with no one on base. The responsibility for the call is the home plate umpire " running up the 1st base line as the ball is in flight, some go half way to the pitcher's mound ", as the 1st base ump is turning and spinning, watching the BR. If there was a man / men on base, with few exceptions, the 1st base umpire is responsible for the call. Base ump should not go past the grass infield between 1st and 2nd to make this call. In a 3 man system. Depending on what was discussed in the pre game. The manual indicates that the 1st base umpire will go out to make the call. The 3 base umpire hustles to the working area / 45 ft between 1st and 2nd to cover the BR. Home plate umpire goes up the line to cover any interference / tag at 1st base. Hank Lemoine umpire Winnipeg Canada.
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Post by QBUA on Sept 22, 2009 18:13:03 GMT 10
this isn't the NRL, haha)
ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING MATE.
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Post by BQ Moderator on Sept 22, 2009 19:07:50 GMT 10
Welcome to the Forum Hank and look forward to your input on Ump rules and knowledge.
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Post by kylebyrne on Sept 23, 2009 10:37:35 GMT 10
Hank, sorryto correct you here, but with no runners on and a ball hit deep to the right field fence the baseb umpire should be going out on the play and letting the plate umpire take the batter runner. In the situation where two umpires disagree on a call then it is the decision of the umpire whos responsibilty the play belongs to to make the call... If there is arguments with managers etc after this then the final ruling shall be made by the crew chief, which does not necessarily mean the plate umpire, it could be the more experienced umpire in the crew
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Post by QBUA on Sept 23, 2009 16:35:03 GMT 10
Teebag, the feeling i've got on this play, is that clubbies were doing the game.
Not all club umpires, Level O or 1, know all the responsibilities and which plays, or starting position of an umpire, change responsibilities from one umpire to another.
From your description, I can not make a call on who was responsible for the ball.
Was the base umpire on the right field foul line, behind the first baseman, (position A), or inside, (position B or C), when the play occurred?
Did the ball bend back towards the foul line inflight, or just straight lining over your head?
These differences determine which umpire has responsibility for the ball.
Some club umpires also think they have, or want every call, and some don't want any calls if they can avoid it.
I'm thinking that both umpires had a different opinion on what exactly you were signaling, one thought homerun, and one thought double.
If they jump on it to early, you can have 2 different signals like you had in your game. (was it a disagreement between umpires about the call, or they both just called differently).
Could you tell by their body language if they were disagreeing.
This is one situation why we don't like 2 umpires at one base, and they come up with different calls. (not pretty)
The 2 umpire system book, (little red one) in a good learning tool for learning responsibilities between umpires.
Hope this helped.
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Post by kylebyrne on Sept 23, 2009 17:03:31 GMT 10
Just remeber wether a ball is curling back towards the foul line or not, if the base umpire is on the fould line lin the right position for no runners on, then anytime the ball has a chance of going out of play either bouncing over or a home run the base umpire is to go out
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Post by T on Sept 23, 2009 21:16:32 GMT 10
There was a runner on first at the time, which would have meant the base umpire was in Position B. I was playing close to the line and it went slightly to my left (from the batter's point of view, between me and the centre fielder). I don't remember exactly when I put my hands up, but I realised straight away once I saw the bounce that it was going over.
I think I may have put my hands up as soon as it cleared the fence, before it had bounced the second time. That may have confused the umpires a bit. And as I said, it was in the morning when the sun is behind that part of the ground, which would have made it even harder for the umpires to see.
I'm not actually completely sure what happened between the 2 umpires, as there was a kid behind the fence who'd picked up the ball and was throwing it back to me. When I turned back around, the runner had stopped on third, the batter had stopped halfway between second and third and everyone had a confused look on their face. I think they both may have called it differently when it initially went over.
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Post by hank1044 on Sept 24, 2009 3:59:46 GMT 10
Kylebyrne. Sorry ! Should have indicated that prior to the game if the lines were not limed from the bases to the foul poles, and or in the pre game both umpires decided to have PU take everything out to the outfield regardless, with no one on. We do this sometimes on the 2nd game of a double header, for the tired umpire in his 50's, that did the dish on the first game, or a tough day at the office game. An assumption on my part. You are certainly correct U1 takes the call if no one on base, and fly ball to the outfield. Here, if the lines are not limed from the bags out to the poles. PU takes the call with no one on. Do you guys do this ? In this case with a man on 1st, U1 is at P3, on the hit to the outfield. U1 either goes to working area behind the pitcher, or to the grass line @ 45 ft mark, to make the call. PU should be doing the pause prior to the rotation, then P15, back off the line to see the whole play develope. Teebag ! Goodonya for helping with your signal. Continued success with your season. Great site Umpire Moderator.
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Post by QBUA on Sept 24, 2009 17:05:42 GMT 10
Teebag, GREAT DESCRIPTION OF THE PLAY.
In my previous posting, I was not thinking that you had confused the umpires with your signal, I don't think that is the problem they had.
Yes, that play is the base umpires responsibility, maybe the plate umpire jumped on it too early and not waited for his partner to signal, or thought it was his job to signal, hard to say.
The only real way we will ever know what they were thinking would be to ask them, but they may never happen.
Sometimes funny things happen in the game, not only with umpires like this situation, with players too.
Just one of those things.
The main thing that happened here, is that they made the correct ruling on the play.
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douglas
Rookie Ball Player
Posts: 8
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Post by douglas on Sept 25, 2009 9:22:50 GMT 10
It was the base umpire who incorrectly called it a home run. It didn't look like a home run from where I was in the dugout and the way teebag played it.
I agree that the main thing was that they got it right, although for a moment there was a bit of chaos.
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Post by QBUA on Sept 25, 2009 16:10:36 GMT 10
Thanks Douglas, your contribution has helped alot.
Some thing to think about with this, they are inside the diamond, and your in the dugout.
Everyone has a different angle on the play, and possibly players inbetween the ball and the umpire.
Angles and other things can change everything.
This is not to give the umpire an excuse.
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Post by T on Sept 28, 2009 11:47:57 GMT 10
A word about automatic doubles: keep your eyes peeled.
Outfields around the place are quite hard with the weather and lack of rain. I've seen 4 in the last week (including the one that I hit), and there's probably a fair few more to come unless we get a fair amount of rain.
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