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Post by Demon Dave on Sept 20, 2009 19:49:19 GMT 10
Hello to All,
I am a new Umpire this year. I had a situation today where a batter hit a slow roller to the infield. The Pitcher fielded to ball and throw to First Base beating the Batter-Runner. However the throw was high and the First Basemen was able to control the ball and tag the base before the Batter-Runner tag the base. I called the Batter-Runner OUT as the he was still two paces off the base. The Batter-Runner hit the First Baseman which dislodged the ball.
The Home Coach protested but I made the call as out. I believe I made the right call, however since I am new I would like to get some feedback.
Did I make the right call?
Dave.
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Post by 44 on Sept 20, 2009 20:01:45 GMT 10
Hello to All, I am a new Umpire this year. I had a situation today where a batter hit a slow roller to the infield. The Pitcher fielded to ball and throw to First Base beating the Batter-Runner. However the throw was high and the First Basemen was able to control the ball and tag the base before the Batter-Runner tag the base. I called the Batter-Runner OUT as the he was still two paces off the base. The Batter-Runner hit the First Baseman which dislodged the ball. The Home Coach protested but I made the call as out. I believe I made the right call, however since I am new I would like to get some feedback. Did I make the right call? Dave. hey Dave, I'm just a new Level 0 Ump myself last season but been around baseball sometime as player and spectator/ Coach. Possibly your scenario is one of those "had to be there to see it plays" But If I rewind your sequence of the play without actually being there: 1: Ball was hit in fair play, slow Roller to F1 2: F1 throws off-line to F3 3: F3 Stretches for ball but controls it and makes tag/contact with 1B while in clear control and possession of the ball before batter/runner reaches 1B. 4: Batter/Runner then makes incidental contact with F3, causing the ball to be dislodged from his glove. I have that as OUT. ( If the play is as you described) Kyle and QBUA ?? |
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Post by Demon Dave on Sept 20, 2009 20:32:02 GMT 10
Thanks Ramsfan44. You have it right.
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Post by mstaylor on Sept 21, 2009 10:11:48 GMT 10
The fielder has to have posession of the ball through the tag. If the contact is a seperate contact or action then the runner would be out. If the runner slaps at the glove and knocks the ball loose then he is out for interference. I didn't answer the poll because the play isn't cuut and dry enough for a yes or no answer.
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Post by hank1044 on Sept 22, 2009 4:10:34 GMT 10
Ask a veteran umpire. Even where I come from, as explained by demon dave. The BR is clearly out, as described. Whether the BR ran inside the line / the ball was caught in foul teritory " yet still tagged the base with his foot " , which may have caused the contact. Here is how you avoid the manager coming out, which is bothered Dave the most " How dare the Manager come out and challenge my call ! " Delay the out call, till the play " including the contact " / BR is past 1st base. Call the BR out, and either use a loud verbal signal indicating contact was after possesion / after the out, and or use the signal. " right hand, in and out of the left hand repetitavely. " This signal is also used when the 1st baseman accidently drops the ball while taking the ball out of the glove to throw to the 2nd baseman, on the familiar after the out throwing around the horn. Once again ! Dave, Kyle, Tayler. The key here is. Simply delay the call. " Pause, Read, React " You got Read correct. Getting the call right, but the lack of Pause / too early to react caused the manager to come out. If I had dollar for every time I said to a young / 1st year umpire: " Take your time. " There is no need to rush the call, after all, the teams and spectators, are a captive audience, and are not going anywhere, till the last out. Continued good luck with your season's. Hank Lemoine - Umpire - Winnipeg, Canada.
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Post by mstaylor on Sept 23, 2009 2:12:22 GMT 10
Hank, I don't disagree with you at all. I simply said that from the description it wasn't clear enough what caused the ball to come out. If the cantact was a seperate action, which is how you are reading it, then it is absolutely an out.
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Post by kylebyrne on Sept 23, 2009 10:40:49 GMT 10
If the collision was accidental then the runner is safe, the fielder has not shown you secure possesion and voluntary release of the ball, if the runner intentional made contact with the fielder then he is out for interference and dare i say he be ejected from the game too.
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Post by QBUA on Sept 23, 2009 17:02:18 GMT 10
I agree with Taylor and Kyle.
It is hard to tell if the first baseman had proper release, making it a catch, or if he dropped the ball.
Just because the ball went into the glove does not mean it is a legal catch.
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Post by hank1044 on Sept 24, 2009 5:01:24 GMT 10
Good day Gentlemen ! Deamon Dave ! To be clear. In your opinion. The 1st baseman had clear possesion of the ball as a catch prior to touching the base with either of his feet, and still had clear possesion, while stepping off the bag with either foot. BR was running where he should be, just right of the foul line in the last half of the baseline. Well after the catch and tag of the base, the familiar, Ooops.... I'm Sorry..... incidental contact between the BR and 1st baseman occurs, while the 1st baseman is removing the ball from his glove with his throwing hand to do the throw around to the 2nd baseman, or throw it to the pitcher for the next batter, or neither, and the ball just simply dropped to the ground out of the glove. Seen it a few times over the years. As you can see by mstaylor and the moderators comments, an opinion on the play gets real interesting, depending on the description of the play. It would have been interesting to see the manager's reaction, if you also threw the BR out of the game for a deliberate collision as Kyle was indicating. Once again. Take your time Dave. Use your signals. Verbal ones especially. You shouldn't see a manager, if you sell the call well. Hank Lemoine.
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Post by theriv on Sept 24, 2009 10:31:57 GMT 10
It would have been interesting to see the manager's reaction, if you also threw the BR out of the game for a deliberate collision as Kyle was indicating.
Both base coaches questioned the call because the base umpire did not see the collision, and in the opinion of the coaches, did not view the play long enough to gauge whether or not the 1b had possession and control of the ball. In fact, the umpire had to be shown/told that the ball rolled behind him (the umpire) on the play. He had lost sight of the ball and did not know how the ball got where it did. As players, we have no complaints about the game these guys called, but do support our coaches questioning whether or not the umpire had seen the complete play.
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Post by QBUA on Sept 24, 2009 16:55:03 GMT 10
Theriv, by the sounds of it, from your posting, the umpire just jumped on and turned away. Some do that.
Also sounds like they were to close to the base, and the play blew up in their face.
When an umpire is to close to the base, things can go on around them and they never see it.
I hope the had a look at their final position when making the call, self assessment, and hopefully they did a self assessment on their timing, letting the play finish before deciding what they are going to call.
Thanks for you input.
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