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Post by QBUA on Jun 13, 2009 18:17:02 GMT 10
SORRY BQ MONITOR.
I have transfered some postings to this thread.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 13, 2009 18:31:06 GMT 10
Runner at 1st base, 1 out.
Batter hits a ground ball to shortstop, shortstop throws the ball to the 2nd baseman, gets the out at 2nd, the batter reaches 1st base before the 2nd baseman releases the ball in the throw to 1st for the back end of the double, the ball is thrown out of play.
Place the runner from 1st and place the batter.
Explain why please. Guesses are easy.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 13, 2009 18:35:30 GMT 10
Posted by scorekeeper:
I'll have a go if he won't - R1 is out 6-4. Batter-Runner is placed on 3rd base (OBR 7.05(g)). 4's throw is not the first play, so awarding the bases on the ball thrown out of play is taken from where the baserunners were at the time the fielder initiated his throw, not from when the pitch was made. And I'm sure this play is not that rare!
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Post by QBUA on Jun 13, 2009 18:37:21 GMT 10
SCOREKEEPER,
here is another play for everyone to look at, similar to the attempted double play, with ball out of play.
NO RUNNERS ON BASE, 2 OUT.
Battered ball hit to shortstop, SS fumbles the ball, BR touches 1st base before the SS releases the ball in the throw to 1st base to try and retire the BR.
The SS throws the ball out of play.
Place the Batter/Runner please.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 13, 2009 18:39:06 GMT 10
EVERYONE, as I have mentioned and apologized to JRA, I am only reading the Rules from the OFFICIAL AUSTRALIAN BASEBALL RULES 5th EDITION book.
As this is the book I have to use if I am to Rule on, concerning a question or PROTEST from a manager.
Seminars, training coarses, the OABR book is the publication referred too, as this is the book we use.
We can be confident that most people who would look up a Rule, would refer to the OABR.
MSTAYLOR is from the States, and does not have copy of our book, therefore, we must accept references of Rule numbers and quotes from him.
Interpretation of Rules are generally the same worldwide.
Since mstaylor would not have to take a PROTEST from a game in Australia, the reading of the BOOK, would not be as important.]
Mstaylor, I would believe that our book would not be very much different than the MLB RULES.
I make this statement so that people in Australia use our book more than going on the web and using the MLB online rules.
I would love a copy of the EVANS UMPIRING MANUAL, but my poor little body could not do the 5 weeks.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 13, 2009 18:40:35 GMT 10
Posted by Puff
My guess on this call would be a judgement on what the ss was trying to do on the play. If he was attempting to throw the runner out on the force play at 1st base then the runner would be awarded 2nd base. If the runner knew he would be safe and took a turn toward 2nd base and the ss was throwing the ball to get him out on a tag play then the runner would be awarded 3rd base.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 13, 2009 18:41:53 GMT 10
Puff, good try.
One of your answers is correct, but not according to the description of the play.
The idea of the description of this play is the Rules that apply and the timing of the throw.1. No runners on base: The play should be 1st base.
There is no double play, or other play, where the infielder makes a first play then a second play to throw out the BR.
2. The fumble: I was trying to indicate that the fielder has now given themselves less time to throw out the BR.
The fumble could be just the ball coming out of the glove and falling infront of the SS.
3. Did the BR touch 1st base before the release of the ball in the action of the throw.
4. The ball was thrown out of play by the infielder.
ie: first play by an infielder.
The BR actions were never described as rounding 1st base, this is important.
If the BR runs through 1st base, it does not matter which way the BR turns to return to 1st base, left or right, it does not matter.
Only if the BR makes an attempt to advance to 2nd base and then changes they mind, does this action come into play.
Rule 7.05: Which Rules applies please.
I'm happy to help you with this one.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 13, 2009 18:43:43 GMT 10
Posted by JRA Qld2:
No need to apologise Richo, I kind of figured you'd be quoting the ABF Rulebook, which really is what I should be quoting myself as it is what we play by in this country. I just got lazy
Without looking at the rulebook and referencing, the runner's awarded 2 bases from last legally touched before the fielder releases the ball.
It's not usually seen as much in higher division baseball as a fielder shouldn't really be throwing the ball if the batter/runner has already reached 1st
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Post by QBUA on Jun 13, 2009 18:45:57 GMT 10
JRA, no worries. This particular play got me at one of my earlier seminars as a new umpire. I did not watch the play close enough and did not apply the Rule as required, so they just keep going with it, (with some hints from the sideline), until I awarded the correct bases.
It may not happen much in higher leagues, however, we can not predict what they will do. In juniors, it would be more common, and I know that alot of people looking at this forum, would do juniors. Hopefully, when they see it, rule accordingly.
There are people out there that think that just because it is the 1st play by an infielder, it is automatically 2 bases from the time of the PITCH.
I'll show you the Rule, and make some highlights, for learning purposes, please don't get bored or read to much into the Rule.
Quote:
OABR RULE 7.05 (Awarding Bases)Each runner, including the batter-runner, may, without liability to be put-out, advance:
Rule 7.05(g) Page 44. Two bases when, with no spectators on the field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over, or under, or though a field fence, or on a slanting part of the scren above the backstop, or remains in the meshes or a wire screen protecting spectators.
The ball is dead;
When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched. In all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made.
7.05(g) (APPROVED RULING 1)
If all runners, including the batter-runner, have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after the pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made.
In certain circumstances it is impossible to award a runner two bases.
End Quote:
If only the BR, then not so hard to rule on.
With other runners involved, you have to be aware if ALL RUNNERS including the BR advanced one base before the release of the ball.
Threw this one in just so people don't think the first play by an infielder is an automatic 2 bases from the time of the pitch.
I wish our Rule book was online, then the COPY/PASTE clicks would be so easy.
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Post by kylebyrne on Jun 15, 2009 10:44:44 GMT 10
Hey Guys,
I want to make a comment about the rules etc. I believe that we should be using and quoting and referencing the official Rules of Baseball. I do all of our training over here to the Official Rules of baseball and i believe that we should all do it that way. Changes are made to this book every year and therefore should be referenced to so we keep up to date etc. The australian rule book isnt as up to date..
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Post by QBUA on Jun 15, 2009 18:59:59 GMT 10
Hey Guys, I want to make a comment about the rules etc. I believe that we should be using and quoting and referencing the official Rules of Baseball. I do all of our training over here to the Official Rules of baseball and i believe that we should all do it that way. Changes are made to this book every year and therefore should be referenced to so we keep up to date etc. The australian rule book isnt as up to date.. Kyle, I understand what you are saying. My concern is that we give out the latest Official Australian Baseball Rules book, presently 5th Edition, to our level O's and level 1's around the time they do their accreditation coarses. Which Rules are you referring to and how often do you get the new Rule updates. I rely on the new Rules and interpretations being decussed at monthly meetings unless otherwise. For myself, this is when the ABF signs off on them and informs the various State bodies of any Rule changes. I do uses our Rules as a training tool, and for new and club umpires to understand the processes we go through to find or use the relevant Rule for the play or situation. If they are in a situation where they need to use the Rule book to refer too, then I would hope they use the book we refer too. It all gets abit sticky and confusing when players, managers and spectators tell them that the Rule is incorrect in the book or there is some abstract rule or bylaw out there that they know nothing of. Thanks Kyle. |
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Post by scorekeeper on Jun 23, 2009 10:03:11 GMT 10
Hey Guys, I want to make a comment about the rules etc. I believe that we should be using and quoting and referencing the official Rules of Baseball. I do all of our training over here to the Official Rules of baseball and i believe that we should all do it that way. Changes are made to this book every year and therefore should be referenced to so we keep up to date etc. The australian rule book isnt as up to date.. I'd like to chime in on this one. For scorers, the Official Australian Baseball Rules 5th Edition are not as good as the OBR (MLB). Firstly, the new definition of Ordinary Effort was left out of the Aussie version - I believe this was done to preserve the original numbering of Rule 2. The OBR has done away with the numbering and just sticks with ordering the definitions alphabetically. This definition is really good, especially for learner scorers, and I feel it should have been included in the Aussie book (even if it meant renumbering the definitions). Secondly, the Aussie version left out the dedicated index to Rule 10, which the OBR has included at the beginning of that section. Rule 10 is at least now indexed to a small degree in the Aussie rulebook main index (it wasn't at all before), but it's still not as good/extensive as the OBR Rule 10 index. Thirdly, there is a mistake in the Aussie Rule 10.21(e)Comment: The example should have read "Nine and one third innings pitched and three earned runs is an earned-run average of 2.89 (three earned runs times nine divided by nine and one third equals 2.89)". It's a typo, but it can certainly mislead anyone trying their hand at stats for the first time. I suggest you all amend your books. BTW, if you have a copy of the OABR 5th Edition that doesn't say REVISED EDITION across the front cover, you won't have this rule at all. They had to reprint the books when it was discovered that the original pg 93 was actually pg 85 duplicated. This rule would have appeared on that missing page. When the revised edition was printed, the page numbering was changed, but on page iii-vi (pages 3-6 in the first printing) there is a summary list of all the MLB OBR changes, but the original document from MLB outlined all of the Rule 10 changes. The OABR didn't, but if they did, you'd see the first two dot points cover my first 2 points in this posting. I keep both sets of the rules handy, and I have pasted in the missing index and definition to my Aussie book as well. As to the new numbering of the old 9.01(c) - this only happened when the Aussie book split 9.01(b) into 2 separate rules, which then pushed the numbering (lettering?) out. I am not sure why this was done - there is no change to the text of the rule/s at all. Well, there's my rant for the day  |
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Post by QBUA on Jun 23, 2009 19:58:45 GMT 10
scorekeeper, thank you for your posting.
I can see that you have done alot of research and keep a close eye on the Rules.
By reading your posting, I do think it would be a good idea to copy it into your SCORERS HUT FORUM.
It would be helpful for those new or experienced scorers to look at.
For others reading this posting, Rule 10 in the Rule Book, which ever one you read, is the scorers Rules and information.
My reply to your posting, I am not sure where to find the MLB RULE BOOK in the written form.
All I have to go on is the OABR Book.
On instruction from a State Director or National Director, Manager, or/and with more experience, I will look into other forms of information concerning Rule interpretation and Rules that may or may not apply.
As I have mentioned before, I am here to help new Level O, New Level 1 umpires and any people asking about the Rules or with maybe a situation that has occurred in a game and they are interested in finding out more.
As mentioned before, if the students (umpires) we teach get into trouble on the diamond, they have a process to go through to make the call, if their right or wrong, the call has to be made within a certain time period, so the game can keep going.
There is no chance to look up a Rule on the internet, they only have the book that is available to them at the time.
I hope a protest is never accepted on a myth or someone in the crowd yelling out the website address.
Yes, the OABR book may be different from the MLB Rules, I say (maybe) because I have not read the MLB BOOK, your posting covered differences very closely.
We endeviour to give students from Level O and Level 1 coarses the most up to date OABR book available at the time.
I do remember once, that we told the students that their books would be forwarded to them, as the book at the time, was to be revised.
As to Rules numbers being changed, this is just a reference to the Rule number, so as to refer to the correct number, in that edition of the book, as not to get people reading a Rule number that does not apply to their question.
From my understanding, there must have been a situation or problem somewhere, to a Rule to be slightly changed, or an addition to the Rule, for the numbers to be changed in the book.
NOT word for word quote:
I refer the Rule change (a batter may now be declared out once they leave the cutout area around the plate, no longer does an umpire have to wait for the batter to enter the dugout or be tagged.)
They must have been a situation or something happen for the powers to be, to make such changes in the book.
Unfortunately, I can not get my mind into Rule 10 (section) of the book, I have enough trouble trying to get to know and remember the first 9 sections to the book.
Thankyou
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Post by ddddyyyy on Jun 30, 2009 13:00:52 GMT 10
I agree with QBUA
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