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Post by kylebyrne on Jun 10, 2009 10:55:42 GMT 10
Hitdog,
Baseball is full of surprises, fielders and runners do alot of funny crazy things. the plays that have been talked about the initail play and the one ask of you, i have seen.. and not just at little league, in professional baseball, thats why i know that the crazy play that started this thread has an answer in which had to be clarified after the event by the Professional Baseball Umpires Corporation. I suggest you just chill out and have a go at giving an answer instead of complaining.. if there are other questions you want answer start a new thread..
So come on guys whats the answer to the inital play here?
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homer
Little Leaguer
Posts: 19
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Post by homer on Jun 10, 2009 13:28:36 GMT 10
Isn't it quite simple. The CI nullifies all other previous and consequent plays. The batter is given 1st base and the run scores. The managers will come out and argue the piece, but it is quite simple. The umpires are in charge of interpretation of the rules and the old fall back is 9.01(c)
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Post by kylebyrne on Jun 10, 2009 14:43:34 GMT 10
the official interpretation by MLB and MiLB is different homer, but your close...
Any other thoughts?
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Post by QBUA on Jun 10, 2009 17:25:46 GMT 10
Homer, why does the CI nullifies all other previous and consequent plays.
Catchers Interference, batter hits a homerun. Should the umpire call "TIME" immediately, then "BATTER 1ST BASE".
The Official Australian Baseball Rules 5th Edition has moved 9.01c to 9.01d. The new 9.01c is apart of a set of Rules that lets us manage the game without it turning into aniky.
This forum is a good place to find out about interpretations, meaning how the rules work, especially with so many experienced umpires posting to it. We can not help those who do not wish to debate, communicate or just not interested in the answers.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 10, 2009 20:05:30 GMT 10
However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, the play proceeds without reference to the interferenceThis did not happen, so the play cannot be continued beyond the interference one would believe, which voids the balk. This is incorrect? JRA, your Rule quote, you are referring to the CI. Your previous postings were good, not right but good, you referenced the Rule number, can you continue to Rule reference in future please, just for the others to look up. Catchers Interference: Rule 6.08c page 40. READ ALL of Rule 6.08c pages 40 & 41. Interference: Rule 2.44: (Rule 2.44b) Defensive interference is the act by a fielder which hinders or prevents a batter from hitting the pitch. (Then the ball would be DEAD) In this play, the defensive player did not hinder or prevent the batter from hitting the pitch. (now Rule 6.08c comes into play) BIG hint: Read Rule 6.08 and look at the whole play in total. JRA, why would the BALK be no longer referred too.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 10, 2009 20:22:54 GMT 10
Isn't it quite simple. The CI nullifies all other previous and consequent plays. The batter is given 1st base and the run scores. The managers will come out and argue the piece, but it is quite simple. The umpires are in charge of interpretation of the rules and the old fall back is 9.01(c) Homer, if managers and players, thinking that senior players are usually Junior grade managers, get to know the rules and how the game works with the difference between a judgment call and a Rule Book call, then the diamond is a better place. If the umpire does not call TIME to early, and lets the play continue, then the manager would have a good case to approach the umpire and question the call in relation to the Rules of Baseball. Questioning an umpires ruling on a Rule of Baseball, is different than arguing a judgment call.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 10, 2009 21:02:06 GMT 10
8.05 (m) PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk. Please note the rule says 'or otherwise' which insinuates any way getting to first legally. This includes interference 6.08 (c) The catcher or any fielder interferes with him. If a play follows the interference, the manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire that he elects to decline the interference penalty and accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, the play proceeds without reference to the interference The following plays 3, 4 and 5, do not satisfy the play to stand after the catchers interference. Therefore the batter is awarded 1st base with all other runners advanced one base. JRA, not to be to unkind to you, but if you are going to quote word for word from the Rule Book, can you quote the exact wording, this can make a difference. Good go at the play thou, keep going.
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Post by 44 on Jun 11, 2009 14:07:00 GMT 10
On a balk, the balk is only ignored if the batter reaches and the runners move up one base safely.
On CI the defensive manager gets to take the result of the play or the CI, unless the batter reaches and all runners move up safely. So, it's still CI.
It's still CI because on on infield fly the BR is out, so the batter and all runners did not move up safely.
So, if the manager takes the result of the play, that's BR out on the IFF. Therefore that's a balk. Score the run, and the batter is up with whatever count he had before the pitch.
If the manager takes the CI, you negate the infield fly. The batter gets 1b, and no one is out. The batter only abandoned his effort to run the bases because he was (presumably) called out on the infield fly. Therefore, score the run, credit BR with a single.
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Post by snoochies on Jun 11, 2009 15:09:30 GMT 10
This is an interseting one and from a players perspective I never knew play could go on after a baulk is called. As a pitcher and the umpire yells baulk, generally the umpires call time and no matter what happens after that, base runners take the next bag. In saying that, have not been round the game for quite awhile and never came across this situation or even heard of it. To my knowledge, for a baulk to actually happen, the umpire must first notice it and then announce it to the players and officials.
So correct me here, next time I pitch and the upire calls baulk, I am legally allowed to throw the pitch and risk the batter hitting a dinger? Is this correct? If this were so, I don't see why a pitcher would even risk it and if he/she does, should be dragged for stupidity. ;D
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Post by kylebyrne on Jun 11, 2009 16:18:23 GMT 10
Correct the ball is alive and in play on a balk.. Umpire should never call time immediately
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Post by QBUA on Jun 11, 2009 19:49:44 GMT 10
Snoochies, this is why dicussing a Rule or a play is so good in this type of forum. A person may come up with a play and ask about the Rule Book or a call made on such a play. A clarification on a ruling. People will come up with a Rule number and others can look it up also.
In your situation in the past, maybe with umpires calling time incorrectly. We umpires (in the forum) are always try to help those with less experience or with a problem or concern with the Rules, so these situations hopefully do not happen in the future. If they do happen, people have more understanding of what has happened and how the Rules and interpretations apply.
As with your situation, if the pitcher after hearing the BALK call, stops his action, then the umpire can call TIME. If the pitcher pitches and the catcher catches the ball, then TIME would be called after the catcher catches the ball. If the pitched ball got passed the catcher, let the play continue, unless a runner did not advance one base without liability of being put out. If the catcher did not catch the ball, and it was not a pass ball, and the batter did not get on base from a hit, error, batter hit, or otherwise, then you would or should call TIME.
With a BALK call, you have to know exactly when to call TIME or if you need to call it at all.
If the pitcher picks off, say to 1st base, once the 1st baseman catches the ball, TIME is called then. On a pickoff, when the ball gets past the 1st baseman and runs down the fence line, then let play continue.
I'm always learning baseball myself and umpiring is somewhat more difficult than hitting a ball or throwing it. I know for a fact that I do sometimes gets things wrong. Kyle if I have made a mistake anywhere in this posting, happy for you to correct me.
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Post by QBUA on Jun 11, 2009 20:10:23 GMT 10
On a balk, the balk is only ignored if the batter reaches and the runners move up one base safely. On CI the defensive manager gets to take the result of the play or the CI, unless the batter reaches and all runners move up safely. So, it's still CI. It's still CI because on on infield fly the BR is out, so the batter and all runners did not move up safely. So, if the manager takes the result of the play, that's BR out on the IFF. Therefore that's a balk. Score the run, and the batter is up with whatever count he had before the pitch. If the manager takes the CI, you negate the infield fly. The batter gets 1b, and no one is out. The batter only abandoned his effort to run the bases because he was (presumably) called out on the infield fly. Therefore, score the run, credit BR with a single. Good posting ramsfan44. From what I am reading, the final result is in there somewhere. Everyone take a step back from the CI rule 6.08c, alot of posters are quoting 6.08c, have a look at the first 2 lines of 6.08. Did the batter reach 1st base without being awarded a base to do so. From my understanding, (otherwise) does not mean being awarded a base.
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Post by kylebyrne on Jun 12, 2009 10:53:30 GMT 10
If the pitched ball got passed the catcher, let the play continue, unless a runner did not advance one base without liability of being put out. Yeah with this one, anytime the pitcher actually pitches the ball and the batter does not advance enforce the balk. If it is a pick off as mentioned that gets away from the fielder and runners advance then leave it in play... Umderstand?
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Post by snoochies on Jun 12, 2009 12:26:29 GMT 10
Interesting rule this one.
What is the correct time to call a baulk then? Is it as soon as the uprie sees it or should the umpire notice the baulk first then let the pitch happen to see what possible outcome may happen.
If I'm pitching and the umpire yell baulk and time I am assuming that after that call has been made, then whatever happens after that means nothing. Am I correct?
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Post by mstaylor on Jun 12, 2009 15:25:03 GMT 10
You call the balk when you see it. Hopefully the pitcher stops. If he doesn't then you get a mess like the OP here. The umpire shouldn't call time until the possibility for the BR to make first and all the other runners to move up a base. Examples: 1. Pitch is called a strike and it isn't the third strike, kill it. 2. Piitch is called a strike and it is the third strike but the catcher catches the ball, kill it. 3. Pitch is called a strike and it is the third strike but the catcher misses it but throws the runner out at first, kill it. 4. Same as above, DTS, BR makes first but the pitcher tags R3 out at home, kill it. There a host of possibilities but hopefully you see the pattern.
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